DHC: What’s been the most surprising realization while working on Axe Cop in the last two years?
Ethan: The way it has developed. When I made him, I did not see Axe Cop as becoming an iconic, long-lasting character. I saw him as a one-page gag. I didn’t think the “gimmick” of Axe Cop could last more than a few pages. But it is still a blast to make, and people seem to still love to read it. I don’t know how that will develop as Malachai ages. I find it hard to believe that one day he just won’t be creative and hilarious anymore, but it will be interesting to see how Axe Cop changes as he matures. Axe Cop, however it pans out, is one fascinating experiment in creativity I am excited to be a part of.
What was the monetizing process like on Dr. McNinja? Did it go viral pretty fast? What was your main source of income in the beginning? As a guy who is still fairly new to webcomics, I am always interested to hear how other webcomics guys actually make a living.
Chris: Dr. McNinja became more popular than I had ever imagined it would within its first week of existence. This was because I posted it in the Something Awful forums, where a large community was already pretty familiar with my comics, and because I showed the comic to Ryan North, and he posted an endorsement and link on his popular website, Dinosaur Comics. From there it just kept growing.
For the first seven months of the comic’s existence, I had a day job as a photo retoucher’s assistant. (I know what celebrities really look like! But I can’t say which ones, or I’ll get sued so hard I’ll fly off the planet.) Eventually I started selling T-shirts, and was quickly making more money from them than the day job. The shirt designs are related to the comic, but you don’t necessarily have to know the comic to appreciate the T-shirt. This was in 2006, and that was how most professional web cartoonists were making a living. You’d take a quote or something from the comic, and recontextualize it.
The best example is how I turned this page…
...into this T-shirt.
If I were to take Dr. McNinja high-fiving Judy in front of an explosion, it would be confusing. So I replaced Doc with a shark, and now it’s some bizarre, beautiful moment of nature that exists in its own space.
I still make a good chunk of my money from T-shirts, but it’s a lot harder now. Everyone sells T-shirts. If you want to actually get people to buy a shirt, it needs to appeal to them more than the sea of hundreds of others. Also it doesn’t help that I don’t really wear funny T-shirts myself anymore, and I’ve kind of lost touch with it. So I design stuff like funny aprons! I still love a funny apron. And funny aprons are the top-selling item on my website now.
“What are you going to do when Malachai gets older?” seems to be a question that you get really often, and I’m sure you’re tired of answering it. So I won’t quite ask that. But I’m curious: is the storytelling changing? Not only because Malachai is maturing, but because he’s undertaking this sort of intense comics-making apprenticeship. Does seeing how his ideas translate into a finished story affect how you two work/play together? Is he developing a better understanding of how stories work as he gets older?
Ethan: Yes, Malachai is always changing, and so is Axe Cop. He is always becoming interested in new things and incorporating new “truths about life” he has picked up. This is one reason that, though I know that Axe Cop as written by a five-year-old is not something that will last forever (he just turned eight, after all), I am open to the possibility of watching the Axe Cop character develop and change with Malachai as he grows up. It could be fascinating—who knows? Maybe it’s not destined for that.
I think that he is getting the hang of storytelling to the extent that he has learned to anticipate the kinds of questions I always inevitably ask him to build on the story. He used to resist questions like “Does something sad happen?” or “How do the bad guys trap the good guys and almost win?” because in his mind you blow up the bad guys and it’s over. But now that he has seen how much fun his stories are when I get him to add some of those elements, he now is more ready to embrace those ideas. I think he has also, to some extent, caught onto the joy of surprising his readers. He likes throwing you for a loop with the solutions he invents. I’m as fascinated as everyone else is to see how this will affect him as a writer in the long run. I don’t know if he even has any interest in writing outside of our time making Axe Cop. I have never seen him make up a story on his own without me coaxing it out of him and writing it down.
Chris: Ha ha, I love that he’s into surprising the reader!
Ethan: I dig that Dr. McNinja doesn’t have a bunch of swearing and crude jokes in it. I remember talking to you about it at a convention, but I just wanted to ask if it was a deliberate choice from the beginning not to make McNinja a crude-humor book. It seems like for the genre it fits into it could easily have been much cruder, which only makes me respect how “clean” it is even more. I like that I can read it with Malachai and he likes it. I’m just curious what made you decide to keep things fairly PG/PG-13, and do you think it was the right choice now that you look back?
Chris: Thank you, Ethan! I wouldn’t say you’re considered a “prude.” I get that feedback quite a bit. I guess as far as “adult” material goes, there are the three elements: language, sex, and violence. The harshest swear words in Dr. McNinja are “bitch” and “damn,” and I don’t want to take it any further than that because generally I find swearing as humor to be lazy and amateurish. There are exceptions out there that I love, of course, but it’s something I wanted to just avoid for my own stuff. As far as sexual content, I think it would be distracting and off-putting in the context. The only thing I have a tricky time navigating is the violence. It’s odd that audiences seem to have a more relaxed attitude toward violence, but that’s just how it is. Dr. McNinja has killed a lot of people! Some of them in quite a graphic manner. Nobody’s complained. But it’s an action comic, and he’s a ninja, so I guess it’s what’s expected. Just like I know that since there isn’t cursing or sex in the comic, I’ve sort of promised to the reader that there never will be.
But honestly, it’s because my mom reads the comic.
You’re about sixty pages into Bearmageddon, a comic I believe you wanted to do for a while, but it was preempted for a bit by Axe Cop’s surprising success. Bearmageddon is a very different comic than Axe Cop, though there are definitely moments that reveal the relation. There are a lot of surprising and ridiculous awesome moments, but they’re part of a larger and slower story, and the violence has actual horrifying consequences. How’s the reaction so far? And how are you managing to do two comics at once, jerk?
Ethan: Thanks. I’m grateful for your appreciation of me managing to do two webcomics at once. I am actually doing two webcomics and a print comic at once, because I am also working on the new Axe Cop miniseries for Dark Horse that follows up Bad Guy Earth.
Chris: Three comics!? You scoundrel.
Ethan: I have kept up pretty well but it’s tough, especially since I got a girlfriend and I want to spend all my time with her and not get any work done. Being antisocial and never hanging around human beings has always been one of my biggest secrets of success. To do three projects at once, I just try to do each one in chunks to stay ahead of schedule. It is kind of a balancing act, but it is also nice to hop to another project if I am losing steam on one of them.
The reaction to Bearmageddon has been great! I had no idea how people would respond to it, but people seem to really be into it, and they seem to be on the edge of their seats, which feels really good to me, as an amateur writer. I really wanted to create a story that was fun but terrifying at moments, and it feels like I’m pulling it off. I love having a project that is “all mine.” Axe Cop has a special place in my heart, to be sure, but I had to take on Bearmageddon just to prove to myself I can still make a good comic on my own. I didn’t want to let my little-brother gimmick become a crutch. As of now I think my Bearmageddon merchandise and site hits are higher than Axe Cop, just because AxeCop.com is only updating once a week at the moment.
Oh yeah, and referring back to the topic of swearing and your mom reading Dr. McNinja, I decided to keep the F-word out of Bearmageddon because my dad has a real problem with it. I wanted him to be able to read it, so I made that choice. I don’t think he particularly gets the comic, but I did it for him anyway.
I also owe a lot of thanks to fans who have hopped on board to help me with the websites and coloring the comics: Noah Maas, Johnathan Mastron, Kailey Frizzell, Matthew Sargent, and Mike Weber. I am able to produce a much better product thanks to them. I send them free stuff as often as I can.
Does it feel like what you have going with Dr. McNinja is something you can keep up as a career for life, or do you feel like it is something that you are trying to use to springboard into other areas of comics or entertainment? I love being a guy who draws comics all day as my own boss, but I often wonder if I’ll ever make a satisfactory income this way. I try to look at my future and I know that either something bigger needs to happen (something in TV or film most likely, where there is more money), my audience needs to expand, or I need to get a real job. My pal Doug TenNapel has been going to college so he can get his master’s because he needs a steady income. You would think a man with the kind of successes he has had would be set, but that’s just not how it works. The unpredictable nature of income in this industry can be tough, especially if you are trying to raise a family. So I’m just curious, when you look at what you are doing now and what you would like to be doing in the future, are you happy where you are, are you seeking to grow, and do you ever wonder if you’ll have to get a normal job?
Chris: I am definitely planning on quitting Dr. McNinja after I’ve done it for ten years. I’d rather wrap up my run on it tidily then let it slowly fizz out into mediocrity while I get sick of doing it. That said, I can certainly see potential for the character and universe beyond my own ideas, so I’ll probably hand it over to other creators over the years.
So yes, I’d like for it to be a springboard to other things! I greatly prefer the writing of comics to the drawing of them, so right now I’m working on expanding my career as a writer. It’s no sweat for me to write a bunch more projects. It’s the drawing that slows me down. I’m actually writing a Dr. McNinja novel right now. After I’m done with that, I’d love to write other comics, or try to get into television, maybe write a stage musical, do sketch comedy, another novel, whatever! I just like writing. I think it’s tough making a living as a creative no matter what. But it’s all I’m good at! Gotta stick with it. And yeah, money is definitely tight in my household, and we do all we can to live frugally in relative comfort. So the only thing left for me to do is more work, and it seems the best answer for that is for me to write more.
Ethan: When I know Chris “Dr. McNinja” Hastings is having to live frugally, I don’t feel so bad. I was looking at your traffic the other day and was once again amazed at your dedicated fan base.
Chris: You and I are both guys who like to syndicate our comics online before collecting them into trades. But you actually had a measure of success in the print-only world with the Eisner-nominated Chumble Spuzz, which I believe Wizard magazine called the “Indie Must-Read for 2008.” What made you decide to try out webcomics? And how has it affected your creative process?
Ethan: Chumble Spuzz was exactly why I went to webcomics. I realized that when you publish a comic book, you get a window of about a month to promote it; then it dies off. Right around its release you get interviews, reviews, etc.; people are talking about it; then it becomes yesterday’s news pretty quick. I also realized that though Chumble Spuzz got great critical acclaim, nobody actually bought it. I basically made no money on that book.
I began to think. If I am not going to make any money on my comics anyway, and if I put them in a comic shop no one will buy them…then why not just put them online? If you have a webcomic, it is alive, it updates regularly. It is not a one-month event that fizzles out. People can rediscover it over and over again throughout its life; people will share it, comment on it, and check up on it. It becomes much more of a living thing, and growth is much more possible. It made sense to me to try it out, even though I had never read a webcomic, and I think yours was the only one I had heard of at that point.
My main goal was to build an audience. Initially, making money was not even in the cards. I just wanted to build a fan base, so that if I ever tried to sell a book again there might actually be some people out there who would buy it. I planned to release Bearmageddon, but I posted Axe Cop first to test the waters of webcomics. I didn’t think it would get a lot of attention outside friends and family. Of course I was totally wrong, and it became the most successful thing I have ever done. So now I still am trying to build an audience, but I had the blessing of getting one pretty fast that was just big enough that I didn’t have to take on other work.
I recommend doing webcomics to all indie creators now. There is just no reason not to. If you make money at comics you are lucky, but you should make it your goal to build an audience first, and the web is just the perfect tool to accomplish that.
As to how it affects my creative process, I think the accountability of an online audience forces me to crank out work at a faster pace, and the instant gratification of getting comments and praise for every single page makes it feel a lot less lonely. It is a marathon to draw an entire graphic novel in solitude, then release it into the print world. To release it page by page, one day at a time, it feels very much more alive and is a lot of fun.
Chris: That is a wholly different perspective than I’m used to! Typically I hear people go to the web because they just wanted a space to share comics with their friends, or because they were rejected by publishers (that one is me).
Ethan: Do you ever feel like you will be marked for life as the guy who does kooky “this combined with that eighties ninja reference” (much like I fear I might be marked as “the guy who can only draw comics if he has a five-year-old doing the creative work”)? Is McNinja the genre you had hoped to succeed in? Do you feel like it is a good representation of your sensibilities as a writer, or are there other genres you want to attempt that might totally surprise your average readers? One reason I took on Bearmageddon was to break the mold of being beholden to my little brother as early on as possible. I love Axe Cop and am very proud of it, but I don’t want it to be a box I get stuck in as a creator. We can’t pick our successes. So I guess my question is: if you could pick your successes, would it be Dr. McNinja, or something totally different? (Was that a long enough question? I could go on…)
Chris: I don’t really feel any fear of being pigeonholed. I can’t tell you why, though. It’s just never occurred to me. When I created Dr. McNinja it absolutely was exactly what I wanted to do. It is the best expression of my voice and artistic desires that I could ask for. I feel very lucky for that! I do a lot of analytical thinking about this sort of thing though, and I think it’s how I got here. When I was in college, pondering Dr. McNinja in the background while I was completing my studies, I was thinking very hard about the things that I loved, what I wanted to express about them, and how they could combine in interesting ways. Even now, I’m working on a story about a lycanthrope, and I’ve been watching werewolf movies (most of which are terrible, by the way) and taking notes on themes and tropes I see pop up, so that I know how to properly approach it later, hopefully with a fresh take. This may sound terribly dry, but I think it’s fun!
Along with bears and dinosaurs and explosions and the like, you’ve struck me as a guy who is very passionate about philosophy and theology. Do you have any plans for bringing that into your comics in the future?
Ethan: Thanks for noticing. My philosophy and my theology (my Christian faith) are two things I am pretty passionate about, but I am also passionate about how I communicate them. If you are ever around me for more than a day you will probably hear me mention G. K. Chesterton. He’s a hero of mine for many reasons, but one of the biggest is how he approached philosophy and theology. He had a completely original, sincere voice and a jovial friendliness about him that made his harshest critics (guys like Bernard Shaw and H. G. Wells) remain dear friends. I have not approached really getting into those topics in my work because I want to get more practice in the department of writing and story. I don’t want to be sloppy. So I’m kind of chipping away with every project. If you read Chumble Spuzz, my faith comes out in odd satirical ways. It’s in Bearmageddon too, and will be more as it progresses, but it is subtle. I want to respect my own philosophy and theology by becoming “fit to convey” ideas that are this precious to me. I also want to respect my reader by not offering sloppy, irrational, or generic ideas. I want to awaken wonder in people; that is my goal, but I feel I have a long way to go, so for now I make them laugh.
How would you feel about creating a musical production of Axe Cop and Dr. McNinja on Ice? A magical experience for the whole family with memorable songs and wondrous figure skaters costumed as our characters? Any ideas how we could pull it off? Maybe a joint Kickstarter campaign? I’ll go on record right now saying I want to make this happen.
Chris: I imagine it would be rather expensive! There would have to be multistory sets (that also have ice on them), a trapeze, explosions, and enormous puppet monsters. I think the best thing we can do is get some sort of wealthy patron, like how Monty Python got George Harrison to help pay for Life of Brian. But yes, if we were to figure out some way to fund it, I would be all for it.
What is the weirdest thing that has happened to you as a result of working on Axe Cop, or comics in general?
Ethan: I feel like Axe Cop is the weirdest thing that has ever happened to me as a result of working on comics in general. I actually prepared myself for the weirdest kind of weirdoes when Axe Cop happened. I figured some weird, creepy child-molester types would start hovering around our booth or something like that. So far, though, people have been pretty awesome. I did have a lady come up to me at a con once and bend over the table, then begin to say very intensely, “I just wanted you to know…how much your work means…to…” Then she lost it; she put her hand on her face and started crying and just took off. I never saw her again. That was definitely weird. I think the only other weird thing was having this guy who draws crude, indie, self-published comics about himself draw me and Malachai into his comic. We were sitting across from him last year at Emerald City Comicon, and all the crowds and cameras and things really pissed him off. He wrote some pretty nasty stuff about us into his biographical comic strip. It was weird to have someone talk about my little brother and me like that…like we weren’t real people. Like we were abstract celebrities or cartoons. People you could say any kind of trash about you want to and they won’t feel anything.
One of my favorite things about the success of Axe Cop is how it led to my befriending the later cast of Mystery Science Theater 3000/Rifftrax. I had always wanted to meet those guys, and becoming friends with them was just a bonus.
And there you have it. A big Thank You to both Ethan and Chris for taking time to go so in depth with this great interview. Don't forget to pick up Axe Cop Vol. 3 TPB today and check out Dr. McNinja soon after.